Engicon

Thanks, now I don't have to write too much.

By the way, if you are ever in the NE, Jay Peak in Vermont is about as close to Wolf Creek that you can get in terms of snow. We had fresh snow all day Friday from continuous snowfall. The tree runs (for some reason, in the east they are called glades) were as good as Wolf Creek. If you don't mind being around a bunch of Quebecois then it really is the best place to snowboard in the east (esp. if you are a freerider).

I do have a problem with you saying "it's not tough noogies". It really is. The world advances, and it's up to you to keep up. When Thomas Edison invented the light bulb, he put thousands of people out of work. The advent of the personal computer also put a ton of people out of work. If those people didn't figure out how to get a new job in an advancing economy, then they starved. But if their jobs were "protected" by quashing these new innovations, then overall the economy (including the holders of the "protected" jobs) suffered.

Anyway, LtCarp, one phrase in your response led me to think that this is argument is just going to be intractable. You said "it's not competition anymore, though, when one side is totally benefiting and nothing is happening on the other side". So, for some reason, you believe that international economies are a zero-sum game. I do not, and Engicon's example is similar to my examples in illustrating that point. What I find mind-boggling is that as a conservative, I expect you harbor sentiments completely opposite those when it comes to the domestic economy. I just find that inconsistent. If you just don't want to benefit China - say that, but don't use any of the other arguments you are using. If you do say that you don't want to benefit China, then you must admit that it is hurting us in the process. In fact, it might be enriching other potential competitors, like Japan and the EU.

All this gnashing of teeth and moaning about jobs being shipped overseas really doesn't hold much water when you look at some of the major employers here in the US - Siemens, Toyota, Philips, BP - they are foreign owned. Heck, doesn't one of our buds, E, work for Lafarge? A FRENCH-owned company?

Since you supposedly "asked it twice", I'll tell you. When we "lose" manufacturing jobs to China, we gain cheaper products over here. They have a lower labor cost than we do. It's cheaper to make stuff there. When it's cheaper to make stuff there, it's cheaper for us to buy it here. That wasn't too bad, now, was it? So, you may harrumph, "but our workers are out of work and they suffer!" No, they don't. There is a readjustment, but in the long run, they are more highly skilled workers than the ones in China. Higher skills mean higher productivity, and higher productivity (for some reason protectionists forget about productivity, they only look at wages) means a better, more productive job and higher living standard in the long run - not just for themselves, but for everyone else. You want a concrete example, here it is. A steelworker loses his job because the Japanese or German steel industry puts his plant out of business. He can handle machinery, some of it even high tech - so he gets a job at the new Toyota plant they are building in the state next door. It's cheaper for the Japanese to make steel, and for Toyota, it's best to take advantage of a pool of highly skilled labor, especially in a country like America, where you can rely on the rule of law.

For some reason, you keep saying you don't see the benefits to free trade (even going so far as saying "there is no empirical evidence"), but since we've opened up our trade policy (during the Clinton/Gingrich years) we've had an enormous expansion in the economy. If the massive growth of those years isn't proof enough for you...ok. You're glancing over your shoulder at China, Japan, and the EU. Let me tell you, looking at their slice of the pie instead of the size of the entire pie is what a liberal does - that's how they justify higher taxes and such.

Well, I guess I wrote a little more than expected...oh well.