trade and McCain

John McCain:

about torture, this is the main reason why I don't support Ron Paul. Paul believes as long as we leave them alone, they will leave us alone. Study Islamic terrorism. Take years if you have to. It is well factualized they want the end for Christians, Jews, and Americans. Period. For the election, there are no full-fledged conservatives left majority-speaking: Clinton, Obama, McCain, Huckabee, Paul. I think the biggest conservative in the 2008 election is gonna come from a third party, like Constitution. Reagan did win big in the past. Bush barely won both of his elections. Since I don't think this election is gonna promote a real conservative, I guarantee it's gonna be another close victory for one candidate. But again, I'm gonna end up voting for him for the simple reason that he's the conservative (he still is in many issues, let's not forget this) that has the best chance of winning. I simply do - not - want 4 years of Clinton or Obama. Ugh, this is a nightmare for me. There goes my tax rates.....I understand not voting for McCain. If most people follow this, this would simply mean a victory for Clinton or Obama. Here comes 4 years of extreme socialism. Again, Obama frightens me. He makes Clinton look normal.

Trade:

After reading everything, I guess I need to talk more. Before I do, I'll focus on a few sentences that caught my eye. Y'all's (if that's a word) sentences start with >>>

>>>Let's consider this idea that totally free trade is "crushing" the little guy. If you believe that,

it is, period. and if you keep reading to the end of what I need to say, you'll see why. I understand all the comments brought forth here, but no one has yet to deny what's been happening. But again, "tough shit," I know. No solutions have been presented, rather "little man: go somewhere and find something else." I mentioned several times already what the alternative ways are, actually I've been asking for them. Throughout the trade talk it almost seems like no one believes what's going on with China. Words like "IF China devalues its currency." So how can I debate any of this when some of you automatically do not believe what is going on? That's why it's been tough debating this.

>>>The theme is personal responsibility. So long as everyone is willing to take personal responsibility and learn new skills as required to keep up with new technologies and a dynamic world, free trade is best for everyone.

this basically opens up to what I'm mostly gonna talk about here and that is just so easy to switch skills. Tell that to the displaced workers who had no choice but to accept the layoff. This is why if it wasn't for Christians, Bush would've lost Ohio...and the election. I think Americans, in all walks of life, liberal or conservative, are getting a little sick and tired of our country being put in the back burner in all these trade deals. This free trade you support is allowing dangerous equipment and people to freely come here. If you don't believe this is going on, just look south of us. China is just one piece of the pie really (there you go, I'm looking at the whole pie, I guess that doesn't make me a liberal anymore). There are many lazy Americans, granted yes, but there are just as many, if not more really, that are primed for a few areas. Most of us here on this board are brilliant and I respect that, but take yourselves out of engineering and see how you'll do. Think about it. And perhaps maybe you can come up with one skill, think of two more. You can't just say this guy that got displaced is lazy and simply needs to learn a new task...like say the medical field or law perhaps mm? Examples please........ of skills they can go to. Because jobs being outsourced include engineers, scientists, programmers, internet specialists, accountants, analysts, research, designers, etc etc. Sure you can do it here, there's plenty available, but the evidence shows since Clinton/Gingrich, more and more of these jobs are shipped every year. And it keeps going up. I've already said we should not trade countries that pose as a threat to us. This includes China (I said it, again). You really think they're building up their military for peaceful purposes? But your theory is basically if we free trade everyone, there is that somewhat of a possibility they'll be buddy buddy with us.

>>>one phrase in your response led me to think that this is argument is just going to be intractable.

I can simply say the same for the other side.

>>>You said "it's not competition anymore, though, when one side is totally benefiting and nothing is happening on the other side".

but this is simply what's happening now - particularly us vs China. Okay sure we're receiving products, albeit a lot of them are shit, over-priced, etc....

>>>If you just don't want to benefit China - say that, but don't use any of the other arguments you are using.

you yourself mentioned the essence is being #1....so that's what I'm looking for on our side. The fact is that no matter how lax and free our policies are vs them, their policies vs us are hurting us.

>>>If you do say that you don't want to benefit China, then you must admit that it is hurting us in the process.

yeah it's hurting me they're building their military machine...we're trading with commies...let's not forget this.

>>>Since you supposedly "asked it twice",

I did, but it was probably a long email no one read, my bad

>>>I'll tell you. When we "lose" manufacturing jobs to China, we gain cheaper products over here. They have a lower labor cost than we do. It's cheaper to make stuff there. When it's cheaper to make stuff there, it's cheaper for us to buy it here.

on the contrary, if it's cheaper to make over there which is the case, they can charge more here, which is the case. Did you look at most countries' export laws vs us?

>>>Higher skills mean higher productivity,

true in some cases, but not always the case. This is like saying if someone goes through training, they can do the job.

>>>(for some reason protectionists forget about productivity, they only look at wages)

You mean you and I, engineers, are supposed to work for a shit living then? Damn right I'm looking at wages. You have people overseas that work just as good, better, and worst than Americans willing to receive a dollar a day. I'm actually gonna wait to see if any of us on this board is willing to take a huge pay cut.

>>>For some reason, you keep saying you don't see the benefits to free trade (even going so far as saying "there is no empirical evidence"), but since we've opened up our trade policy (during the Clinton/Gingrich years) we've had an enormous expansion in the economy. If the massive growth of those years isn't proof enough for you...ok. You're glancing over your shoulder at China, Japan, and the EU.

There's more to an expanding economy than just one principle. This is like Clinton taking credit for the economy on his own. It's like a car. Everything on the car needs to work for it to be efficient. Didn't I tell you what's happening now? The only conservatives really that support all this extreme-free trading are the Bush/McCain/neoconservatives. Even Lou Dobbs and Donald Trump disagree with free trade. Granted, Trump isn't a conservative for the most part, but like your essence of #1, that's exactly what Trump feels too and who in here would really turn down an offer to become Trump for a lifetime.

>>>Let me tell you, looking at their slice of the pie instead of the size of the entire pie is what a liberal does - that's how they justify higher taxes and such.

and I never said anything about raising taxes

Anyways, I'm seeing one side from you guys. Look at the other side. I've already explained it...but I'll talk further. Jobs that are leaving the US, say programming and manufacturing, go to countries like China, India, the Middle East. All a terrorist group needs to do, rather than missile or bomb us, is to disrupt the flow of goods (always happening in Africa, why else is all the equipment used there to terrorize come from us?) and services. They could easily fire missiles from some ships coming to our shores. I know I talk about China a lot and you mentioned to me how about India? Exactly. India and Pakistan aren't exactly the best of friends and Pakistan is just one Musharaff away from firing their nukes (oh yeah, these two countries have nukes, I forgot) to India and destroying the very places that help us and our economy. Then there's Taiwan. Taiwan is one independence billboard away from China destroying them. You do realize we depend on China now financially? Due to Bush's wild spendings, we've been relying on China heavily (how else is Iraq funded?). I guess that's "free trade." But do you really think China is gonna sit quietly with the IOUs?

Frankly, we've been relying on foreign nations for quite some time now and I'm aware of your "look for other skills" ideal. In fact, several here now mention "look for other skills" like that *snaps fingers* The "basic" jobs are quickly becoming a dying breed in the US. Not everyone can become a manager, CEO. I've already gone through contractor teams that are basically all managers and no engineers. It's a disaster. Which means we need more *voila* "workers." And I know what you're thinking: outsource! Where does that exacly leave the middle and lower class then? Mm? It's a pyramid after all where only the few can be at the top. I can't see why the CEO is the devil though. If I was in his position and with our trade laws that y'all freely support, it's mighty tempting to just give up a huge portion of your sector to areas that'll do it for nickles and dimes.

Somehow my view of fair trade is liberal according to y'all, even though it's being accepted by numerous conservatives now...fair trade is basically allowing trade and to promote competition and diversity at the same time not eliminating industries and professions. We've already had an Asian crisis in the late 90s and all the economists say this is about to turn the whole world into a recession. Why did they say that? Because industries rely on them so much. The only reason why there was no depression here was because of the dot-com bubble. Diversity of jobs here is the key. Interdependence increases risks.

My labor point was pseudo-ignored. Simply put, again, most engineers can't compete vs Asians when their living condition is pure shit. Hell, engineers are better off becoming bathroom repair or work at Burger King. And I know, look for another skill. Even the Economist (conservatives by the way) say it's not as easy to simply just "switch skills." The very own Labor Department (numbers don't lie) during the Bush years stated that only about 20% of displaced workers actually ended up in jobs they retrained for. Bush says in his state of the union addresses many times about 6 million, 7 million, 8 million jobs being created. You can't ignore the fact that he lost even more. I honestly hate to say this for Bush, but it's fact that he's about leave his presidency with a net loss of jobs. His tax cuts displayed the same effect. Tax cuts are great, but not if you're spending at the highest rate ever and our gas prices near killing us every other week. And with gas prices high, look at what it'll effect: truckers. And how do things get transported around America? Exactly. Thus resulting in higher prices of groceries for one example.

America historically does not do well creating jobs for displaced workers. I know, it's very simple to "switch." You realize how expensive it is these days to go to school? Almost any school? I guess if you're a farmer, you can just easily switch to mining and manufacturing or perhaps retail services. Nah, these farmers can easily become doctors after 8 years. With the way you talk about switching, we might as well get 4 college degrees while we were in. How about some of us that are a little more intelligent brain-wise? We run the risk of being overqualified if we go down. When I was job searching you realize how many times I was considered overqualified and risk of getting overpaid? Yes, in the past I actually for the hell of it decided to look at "basic" jobs and see what would happen. It's easy for CEOs to say "get more education." Hell even Alan Greenspan suggested this. But when asked specifically, they'll never specify. One thing also ignored is...well, let's just be blunt, most engineers and programmers aren't necessarily the best when it comes to people skills. Where are they gonna learn this? College? Reading a book? I guess we can try to be a manager, but for every manager, you really need at least 5 more workers and most engineers cannot be entrepreneurs. Yes, there are exceptions, but it's not the majority - period. Fact is most new businesses fold within a decade of starting. It's just the way it is. I guess they can try "looking for new skills." And since I'm speaking of education so much, you think our education system is that top notch in this day and age for the most part? What a joke, this is why I advocate privatizing education and allow vouchers. The public system is embarrasing. There are bright spots but it's like 1 in every 1,000 public schools. It's only the select few (I think us for example) that went to crap schools but took the time on our own to better ourselves. Besides that, look at our good ol' *drum roll* NMT for example. Why the hell did we take analog electronics? Analog didn't help me in any other class at tech unless if you're taking advanced analog (and boy does this school know nothing about connecting to industries for our graduates to get jobs but that's besides the point). With how crappy our education system is from the beginning, that's the reason why when you look at the grad school population in America - it's virtually all foreigners. Take a look at NMT's (and elsewhere) commencement for the graduate section and you see a bunch of Waleed Al Hamud's and Yan Li's. The only reason why US grad schools look great is because of the money being poured in. Top research jobs really are not in this country and if they are, foreigners are in it. In fact, really only 10% of tech jobs are the highest of cutting edge. If these foreigners aren't in these positions, there are plenty of them willing to do similar jobs for a few bucks a day back home.

Okay, I went off on education, back to trade. I'm beating on the "new skills" a lot, but I'm proving my point here. I guess all that's left to switch to is physically demanding jobs, like moving stuff, technicians, plumbers, etc. Wow. So from Genesis to Revelations, we went from top engineer to basically packing boxes. Is that your idea of switching skills? That may work for you and Muz and Donald considering how ripped you are but for most engineers....I doubt this'll be good for them. And for you, are you really......are you really willing to do something like this? Mm?

You guys keep mentioning everyone benefits in the end. How again? No specifics mentioned except a bunch of boats rising with tides. Sure we do allow a few guest workers into the country but do you think China and other countries will allow American to just walk in? You realize how it's virtually impossible to start a business in China? My very own co-worker mentioned that this job (this can apply to many areas) is quickly becoming all managers and no engineers. TRUE free trade would allow us all to cross paths anytime we wish, but the world we live in today? It'd be a miracle to get out of a foreign country once you're in it (pray you have a passport).

Finally, it may seem like I don't support capitalism. But we really didn't have the full gamut of free trade before Clinton and do you consider those Americans in the past anti-capitalist? I think not.